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Rat-Terrier.com
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/08/2010 8:02 PM |
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LOL, probably the "texture"...about the only thing I've found that mine will avoid is lime jello. But I'll bet it was nasty having to clean him up after he rolled in it! Bethany, I kid you not, the stubborn man came in this morning complaining that he had a hard time finding the poop to "flag" it. Sometimes, it's just not worth the effort to try to reason with him. I told him that it literally crumbles, and falls through the grass, never to be seen again. And he says "Well, I know it's there somewhere, and I'll step in it" |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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ivy

 Feisty

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| 03/08/2010 8:34 PM |
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| I am so glad it is going well! Too funny about him not being able to find the pooh!!! People are just so use to the kibble nasty kind of pooh they can not believe there is any other kind!! Sounds like the girls are making a convert out of you. I am sure you will see a difference in their teeth too. Good to see you on the yahoo email list. I have yet to post on it but it is a wealth of information. |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/08/2010 9:44 PM |
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FYI, dogs do not digest vegetables. They do not get anything from them and they aren't part of a prey model diet. I'd stick with meat, bones and organ. Yogurt is not necessary either and dairy products are actually on the "do not feed your dog" list, they can cause stomach upset and diarrhea. If you are looking for the probiotic effect of yogurt, then just feed a probiotic. You are well on your way - you are introducing livers in small amounts - if they are doing well, keep at it and maybe start introducing beef slowly into their diet. You'll love the variety that you will build up to and the simplicity of feeding your pups the way they were meant to be fed. Funny how well they do when we do that LOL. If a poo crumbles through the grass and no one sees it - does it really exist? :o) |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/08/2010 9:51 PM |
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Here you go: http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice. Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released). Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 10:39 AM |
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So, a little over a week in, and so far, so good. Still getting some resistance (diminishing) from hubby, eventually, we'll wear him down
They've done chicken (Lacey doesn't like drumsticks, Pokey doesn't mind, she'll eat anything!), gizzard, liver (just one of each on days with a bone heavy piece), and today, they had pork tail and egg. There is a tail tip in the package, and for all the world it looks just like someone's thumb (without a nail) I don't know if I can watch them eat that....
Output is as expected and described, but you can see when Pokey has filched some cat kibble...rather remarkable color striations |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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lockner13

 Terrier Terror

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| 03/11/2010 11:16 AM |
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Bobbi, I am so happy the girls are doing so well!!! I could not feed pork tail, just thinking about my little girl eating a pig tail. Ugh! hahaha The stories about your husband and the poo is cracking me up. I wish my husband was such. I told him last night he must get the poo up tomorrow as it is becoming out of control as the neighbor dog sneaks in and does his business in the backyard as well. Please keep us posted. I find this very interesting. |
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Amanda ~Mom to my furkid Mollie~
Adoption Coordinator/TN State Coordinator/Foster Parent New Rattitude Rat Terrier Rescue http://www.NewRattitude.org |
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Lucylu

 Bratty Ratty

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| 03/11/2010 11:29 AM |
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I eat pig tails, it's a West Indian delicacy. Yummmyyyyyyyy Bobbi, so in awe that just like that you did it. I haven't found the courage |
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Layla Proud dog parent to Lucy, Fiona and Kip
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 11:37 AM |
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Good for you, Bobbi !! (and good for your furkids too!) I've been feeding raw for over two years now... closer to three actually. My dogs would not know how to act if I offered them anything else at mealtime. Well... I take that back because my critters eat pretty much anything that is thrown in front of them. haha I do indeed love the added benefit of less poop to have to deal with. P |
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~Nora~ Mom to Lil'Bit, OCD.. Buster, CGC.. Bailey, CGC, MX, MXJ.. and Piper (pup-in-training)
"Every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~~Author Unknown~~ (RIP Hoss Man 3/2/2009) |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/11/2010 12:52 PM |
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I am thawing some of the free meat I got on Craigslist. Mine get porterhouse tonight! LOL. it is from 2006 tho... How did the pork tail go down? I haven't tried that. I get frozen pork hearts in bulk for .79 / lb. They are lean, but cheap and the dogs have to work at them a bit. They are a nice size too. The other thing I recommend is tripe/organ mix from greentripe.com. I split an order every few months with a friend. The company was on "Dirty Jobs" it was really fascinating. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 1:11 PM |
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The pork tail went well, they finished their portions in about the same amount of time that they finish chicken. But I did get the "what the heck is this" look at first. It was cut in strips about the size of a large hot dog, with smaller bones. That worked better for my small rattie, she's only barely 7 lbs and petite. Porterhouse steak...wow lucky pups! |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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Lucylu

 Bratty Ratty

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| 03/11/2010 1:33 PM |
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Christine, how do you know that the meat from craiglist was a trusted source (I am sure you did investigate). And is meat frozen from 2006 still good, is there any nutritional value left after so long, we are talking 4 years. I am not a food expert, so just curious not judging or anything. Bobbi, are you going to continue this, or is this just a trail. Do you find it time consuming. |
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Layla Proud dog parent to Lucy, Fiona and Kip
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 1:46 PM |
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Hi Layla For the time being, I am going to continue, even though it has been time consuming (most of that arguing with Loren about it). I am going to buy another round today, and this time, do all the cutting and portioning ahead of time. I have freezer space, so I can put their meals in ziplocs. The only thing I do differently than before is I have to mop their eating area with a bleach solution to sanitize, since Pokey especially tends to drag her meal around the kitchen. Loren suggested that I get a puppy pan and that way she can stand in it and work on the meat/bone. I will say that not just the poo, but their breath has become totally odor free. No doggy smell to it at all. |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 1:49 PM |
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| I feed the raw patties.... much less time-consuming. Have you considered that possibility, Bobbi ? |
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~Nora~ Mom to Lil'Bit, OCD.. Buster, CGC.. Bailey, CGC, MX, MXJ.. and Piper (pup-in-training)
"Every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~~Author Unknown~~ (RIP Hoss Man 3/2/2009) |
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 1:58 PM |
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| I had thought of that, but one of the main reasons for raw was having them use teeth to strip meat and eat bone too. Do you just use the ground meats from the grocery store? |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 2:20 PM |
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No.... I get the Nature's Variety raw patties... and now more and more am using the Stella & Chewy's raw patties. (link below) http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Stella-Chewys-Frozen-Raw-Food-for-Dogs/300000.aspx I give my dogs raw bones and beef tracheas for their teeth, although the patties have crushed bones in them. Just a thought... sure is a lot easier than what you are doing. Much depends on how much time a person has. I don't seem to have an abundance of time so the patties are just easier for me. |
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~Nora~ Mom to Lil'Bit, OCD.. Buster, CGC.. Bailey, CGC, MX, MXJ.. and Piper (pup-in-training)
"Every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~~Author Unknown~~ (RIP Hoss Man 3/2/2009) |
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JenMax

 Firehouse Big Dog

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| 03/11/2010 2:48 PM |
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Stella & Chewy's raw patties.
This is a Wisconsin company I think, right?
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Jenny - Max's sister
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/11/2010 3:02 PM |
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Nature's Variety had a recall on their frozen chicken patties - I don't have the link - it is on their website. FYI. I fed those to my dog too, they are spendy, a good product, but too expensive for feeding a lab, and they have added extras that I don't want to feed a dog prone to allergies. I find my dogs get much more stimulation out of tackling a large portion of chicken or chunk of beef. The reason their breathe is better, is that the working at eating has been cleaning their teeth! You will find they will likely have no odor on the whole - that is without baths. Dogs are not supposed to smell. Layla, dogs can eat 20 year old meat as long as it has stayed frozen, heck dogs can eat stinky meat. My husband is out of work so I have to do the best I can. This woman had recently lost her dog and was looking in pets and saw my ad. She went to great trouble to meet me, wait for me (I took the wrong exit). I offered to pay for the meat, but she gave it for free. She was going through her deep freezer and was going to pitch it. Yep she could have been out to hurt my dogs, I have no guarantees of that but I don't generally think that way... If I thaw the meat and it is rank, well then, it hasn't stayed frozen and I'll know. Ground meat (from the store) is fine if you get a good deal on it, you can use it to supplement a bony meal, but it poses no challenge for your dog, the more large pieces you can feed, the better. I find the diet is really simple and flexible. I usually feed every other day and I feed one type (except when I add organs to chicken) so they can get a big piece. Today is all beef. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/11/2010 3:06 PM |
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I should have answered the question - yes frozen meat retains it's nutritional value...
And, I agree, frozen patties are a great way to get started - they are spendy and don't have any dental benefit, but you will see the overall benefit of a raw diet in your dog's condition. NV contains fruit and veggies which aren't part of a prey model diet... |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/11/2010 3:16 PM |
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| I re-read that and it sounded defensive. I think a common sense approach is all that is really needed for Craigslist. My ad states my husband is out of work and my lab can only eat raw (allergies), most people that respond, genuinely care. I am taking something that they were going to eat themselves but didn't and now it won't go to waste. It doesn't worry me too much. |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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gwacie

 Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 3:24 PM |
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I have trained my crew to eat on small towels when I feed inside, Bobbi, you might try that. Every time they would try to drag the food off I just take it back and put it on the towel and tell them to stay. They learn very fast. I started with bigger towels but now they eat on hand towel sized towels. These are washed and bleached in a dog load every few days. Much easier than having to bleach the whole floor each time they have a meal. I steam mop twice a week. In summer they eat outside. As to patties vs. prey model vs. other feeding methods, I always recommend each person do the research and make decisions for him/herself. Any natural raw diet is pretty much an improvement over a kibble diet in general and I am tickled when folks choose to feed raw (or even home cooked) over feeding kibble, ESP crappy kibble (which most of our members are already educated against). Healthy dog diets have been my personal soap box for longer that it has been in vogue. About the ONLY good thing about the food recalls we've had the past several years is that folks are finally starting to really pay attention and learn what they are feeding their pets. So do your research, decide for yourself and start in ways you feel comfortable with. I can espouse my personal thoughts but until you come to a decision and make the leap for your own crew it's all just opinion and heresay. I will say this though, once you start feeding a healthier fresher diet to your dogs you will be so amazed by the improvements in their smell, tone, coat, stool, breath, teeth etc that it makes all thoughts of returning to kibble fly out the window. |
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gwacie (Bethany) My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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gwacie

 Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 3:26 PM |
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Christine, no need to defend your CL finds, I envy you. I'm just paranoid (not just in this area of life) so can't let my guard down (same reason I can't have anyone come in and clean my house). BUT I have family and friends that 'dump' their freezer burnt leavings on us all the time and the crew is HAPPY to help them out with clean up!! |
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gwacie (Bethany) My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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gwacie

 Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 3:40 PM |
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Another tip if you decide to continue, Bobbi is to, as you say, do all your prep at once and freeze. Instead of ziplock bags I suggest you buy the right sized storage container (disposable reusable ones work great for this) for your two girls for about 3 meals for the dogs (which is like the size of a shoebox at our house since I have so many to feed). You can throw them in the diswasher like you would any other meat storage item you have or wash them in a sink full of hot soapy water with a touch of bleach, whatever you prefer.
I do all prep at once, portion into the boxes and freeze it. We have a wholesale meat place downtown here so I send hubby down every few months to buy big boxes of a few of the things we use a lot (they come in 40lb boxes) and I spend a day every few months divving it all up into the resuable boxes and freezing it in our deep freeze. So one day every 3 months is devoted to food prep. It's not my favorite job but not bad. Some things we get in such large sizes they need hacking up (like full rib sets, even though my Eddie swears he can eat an entire rack of ribs if only I'd let him try), other things are just a matter of divvying up, no cutting. Then I watch for mark downs at the local store (which they do a lot on last day meats) which are great for the dogs. Those I just toss into the freezer until I want them.
Got in the habit of buying in bulk when we had the greyhound girl and just never stopped. But having only the 2 dogs (or 1.5 if we count little Pokey correctly) at your place would make the whole process much easier than what I go thru - you can buy a family pack of whatever is cheapest and go nuts for the week! |
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gwacie (Bethany) My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/11/2010 3:58 PM |
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I will say this though, once you start feeding a healthier fresher diet to your dogs you will be so amazed by the improvements in their smell, tone, coat, stool, breath, teeth etc that it makes all thoughts of returning to kibble fly out the window. This is why you will never shut me up about it LOL. And I can get one person to think about it - then I am happy. I do tend to get informational... I think that comes from the general opinion that raw feeders are kind of a cult and a little crazy... I buy in bulk or store clearance and divvy as well. I've stopped divvying into "meals" because I find that my meal portions go up and down as I do more research (yes! this is important totally agree with gwacie)... but I do take that 15 lbs of pork heart and divvy into 4 hearts per bag, etc. From being on forums, there are many different methods and it depends on your space and your feeding style. Paisley eats outside, Murphy on a towel, and Moose in the garage... And gwacie, I am sorry to say, but we raw feeders are still not in vogue... LOL! |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 4:02 PM |
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| Thanks for all the great tips! I'm sure that once I get in a routine, it will go easier! |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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gwacie

 Moderator

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| 03/11/2010 4:48 PM |
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"I've stopped divvying into "meals" because I find that my meal portions go up and down" Absolutely. I don't do 'meals' per se either. Just approx enough food for half a week as I don't want to thaw more than that at a time or it starts to go off by the end of the week AND takes up too much fridge room. It's not an exact science by any means. |
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gwacie (Bethany) My Doggies: http://www.myadams.net/dogs/ Rescue: http://www.newrattitude.org |
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Peekapuppy

 Ratastic

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| 03/11/2010 7:09 PM |
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| Well, I got my first "comment" from Lacey...I gave her a bit of chicken liver and gizzard since the morning meal was "bone" heavy. Pokey dived right into hers (she's taken to the carnivore lifestyle with great enthusiasm), Lacey did her usual pre meal ritual of "killing" a stuffy. She then went to her bowl, sniffed, then went right back to the stuffy to shake it some more, as if saying "Hey, Ma, it's not "dead" yet!" |
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Bobbi Mom to Lacey and Pokey |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/12/2010 7:39 AM |
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Three of my dogs absolutely love the raw chicken necks I occasionally feed. Bailey turns his nose up at them.  |
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~Nora~ Mom to Lil'Bit, OCD.. Buster, CGC.. Bailey, CGC, MX, MXJ.. and Piper (pup-in-training)
"Every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~~Author Unknown~~ (RIP Hoss Man 3/2/2009) |
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sal

 Ratastic

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| 03/12/2010 9:08 AM |
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Way to go Bobbi! And kudos to Lacey and Pokey for taking on new diet. I tried some raw meat on Miss Snickers one day and she just looked at me like I was out of my mind.
I am probably going to have to start with the premade raw patties which I imagine is still better than the kibble overall. I like the idea of all natural and none of this stuff I can't pronounce in the kibble.
I am anxious to see how Pokey and Lacey progress doing the raw thing!  |
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Sherri - Love Struck Mommy to Master Heart Thief, Snickers
“Happiness is inward and not outward, and so it does not depend on what we have but on what we are.” HENRY VAN DYKE |
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bluedog

 Obsessed

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| 03/12/2010 12:21 PM |
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My chi likes chicken necks. Paisley dragged one around the yard for 10 minutes and didn't eat it... Usually she gets a chicken quarter or 1/2 cornish game hen (those are lovely size for ratties)... My 2 little dogs are not fond of liver or other organs. I usually cut it up and feed them in a group in the kitchen, like treats - they swallow the liver before they realize what it was. they are very suspicious of it otherwise. I split an order of Organ Mix from greentripe.com with a friend, that includes lung, heart, trachea, liver, kidney, etc. and green tripe. They will eat that fortunately... |
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Christine Mom to Michael & Charlotte Moose (lab), Paisley (rattie), Clark & Lois (tolerant kitties) |
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rattytatty

 Training Moderator

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| 03/12/2010 1:35 PM |
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They had chicken hearts on sale at the grocery yesterday, and I started to buy several packs, but then decided against it. Not sure my dogs would eat them.  |
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~Nora~ Mom to Lil'Bit, OCD.. Buster, CGC.. Bailey, CGC, MX, MXJ.. and Piper (pup-in-training)
"Every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~~Author Unknown~~ (RIP Hoss Man 3/2/2009) |
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